More On That
Did you think I was going to break my NaBloPoMo, 30 posts in 30 days, promise? Well, I almost did. My computer will no longer turn on. I guess it didn’t like my last blog topic. I’m using our outdated upstairs computer that we use to store back-up data, etc, for now. Hopefully it won’t crash!
I wanted to thank all of you who left thoughtful and respectful comments on the last post. I wasn’t looking to be scolded for my irreverance or lack of faith, and had hoped people could explain their perspectives without using the words “wrong,” and “only 1 way,” etc. I was genuinely interested in how people could answer those questions from a Christian perspective, so thank you for doing that so well.
As always, I found Amanda’s comment to be beautifully written and very enlightening. J also always amazes me with the way she practices Evangelical Christianity, a religion many people admitted in their comments to thinking is purely intolerant, yet she approaches everything with admirable openness, and her message is always love and tolerance. I have to admit, J breaks a lot of my stereotypes. I joke with her all the time that her church really needs to hire the PR group that works for the Church of Latter Day Saints (the Mormon church). Of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule, but Travis and I have found LDS members to do a pretty incredible job of praciticing the preachings of their church. There’s something about demonstrating the teachings of your religion without ever having to actually speak of it that impresses me. [Amanda, do you think your sensitivity and acceptance of other cultures and religions has to do with doing missions overseas? Is it just you and Sterling? Or is it your church's attitude as well?]
As for my where I am, personally, with religion…I guess I would describe it as an aversion to organized religion. It stems, in part, from the place in which I was raised. A wealthy town that seems to be a volatile mixture of hardcore Fundamentalist Christians and a sizeable Jewish population. Travis and I grew up in families that didn’t fit into either of those categories until recently, but now both of our families fall towards the former. I am very hyperaware of the religious tension, and I have a hard time with it when we go home. The last time we were down there, Travis and I were really disturbed by the planes flying overhead, writing “Jesus Saves,” in the sky. Prosthyletizing is one thing, but that kind of in-your-face, we-own-the-sky, all-out relgious warfare is just too much for me. And the church service we’ve been attending each year at Christmas with our families always has 1 person, who they call a “completed Jew,” stand up and give his testimony, which is incredibly offensive to my Jewish friends since the automatic inference is that they are “incomplete” if they are still practicing Jews. The rest of the service is full of talk of hell, gnashing of teeth, and reminding us all that there is only 1 “right way.” It’s a hard pill for me to swallow, especially at Christmas, and I just end up feeling so turned off by it all because the message is so harsh and so abrasive.
I went on a medical mission trip the year before I started medical school with a doctor from this church. We went to Haiti and worked in a church-run, very makeshift clinic. It was my first exposure to patients with serious infectious diseases, like TB, as well as people dying of malnutrition. The doctor I worked with would often use the lure of medical treatment and nutrition supplements to draw people into the church, which I found hugely morally objectionable. It was manipulation of the most vulnerable people. But she used a very Machiavellian logic, and however she got people to Christ (even through bribery) was ok so long as she got them to say “I accept Jesus as my savior.”
I had other earlier experiences that shaped my stereotypes and my opinions into less than positive ones as well. But for me, whenever I get curious and ask questions, I get lost and tune it all out when I start hearing those words again: “wrong,” “the only way,” “hell,” “eternal damnation,” etc. It just ends up leaving such a bad taste in my mouth and makes me feel so negative. And as several of you pointed out, the harsh reality seems to be that Christianity is a very exclusive religion. It makes no room for others because the foundation of it is that Jesus is the only way. But it was nice to hear that exemption clause for people who have never had the chance to accept or reject it, like our kids’ birthparents if they’ve never heard the Bible preached. That God does give them a chance in the afterlife to make a choice.
Not to go political on you, but I’ve also had a really hard time the last 8 years with the seemingly inseparable church and state issue and the Evangelical / Fundamentalist Christian = Republican movement, which has just pushed me further and further away from ever wanting to expose my kids to religion. I’m truly not trying to offend anyone here, I’m just talking about the experiences I’ve had and how they have shaped where I am with religion today. It may seem weird, but that affiliation is one of the biggest turn-offs of all to me.
I know that intolerant, judgemental, hateful, self-riteous people are not truly practicing Christianity, and the really amazing Christians out there (like J, Amanda, and the others of you who wrote comments that were loving and non-judgemental) remind me of that. But the associations are so ingrained in my head that I can’t separate the majority of people I see practicing their idea of Christianity from the true religion. Does that make sense?
And moreover, I don’t want a religious affiliation with people who practice intolerance. I know the relationship is supposed to be about me and God, and that part I am good with. I do pray. If she’s reading, my mom just fell off her chair. But I do. Not to Jesus, because the jury is still out on whether I think he was a really sweet schizophrenic man, or something more (I’m kind of joking here - it was a reference to your comments in the previous post:). But I do pray. And if there is a heaven for good people, not exclusive to Jesus-loving good people, that’s where I want to end up:) I did get a kick out of Tongguu Momma’s comment that heaven isn’t just a place where good people get to hangout, heaven is a place where all beings there spend 100% of the time worshiping Jesus, so people who aren’t interested in a relationship with God / Jesus wouldn’t care to be there anyway. From the first part of her comment though, I got this hilarious mental picture of a party in the clouds with some dude in a cool garb was playing the acoustic guitar while the rest of us mingled with champaign glasses! Hahaha.
OK, PHEW, that was mildly therapeutic. Anyway, thanks for another good discussion guys. Tomorrow’s topic will be light and fun, I promise! That is, if the mac store can fix my computer. All my pre-written posts are stored on that machine…lots of wasted marshmallow brains if that thing can’t be salvaged.
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Oh don’t even get me started on the Republican party being the “Christian” party!! PLEASE don’t let George Bush be the reason you don’t pursue Christianity! HE DOESN’T SPEAK FOR ALL OF US!!!!
=-) Haha.
I just read your last post on Christianity. I am a believer in Jesus and an adoptive mother as well. We adopted our son from Vietnam in March of 07. I believe that the Bible is the inspired, true word of God. Having said that, I believe the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one way to heaven. The way is through the sacrifice of God’s son, Jesus. I believe that no one will inherit heaven through good works; none of us are worthy of it. That’s why the sacrificial death of the sinless Christ is so pivotal to my Christianity. It is only in accepting His blood for our forgiveness that we can become Christians.
As a mother, my hope for my son is that he one day accepts God’s son into His life and seeks Him for forgiveness of his sins.
I respect other’s peoples opinions and beliefs, and I do not believe in blasting someone for the way that they believe. First, Jesus did not win others that way. Second, it is a major turn off to unbelievers. God has given all of mankind creation and a conscience to guide them to the Creator. If others could make it to heaven by believing in some other god, the death of Christ would have been for naught.
Again, its nice to know i am not the only religion-less freak of nature out there. There are so many religions out there, its hard to think that there is only 1 right religion. I too have a evangelist christian friend, who is total open and accepting. Her and I are so alike that sometimes I think we are related somehow and just don’t know it. I like open, accepting, non judgmental people, whether they believe in a religion or not. I personally am drawn to people who are different that myself, i love to learn about new things, cultures, and lifestyles - maybe that’s 1 reason religion doesn’t appeal to me. Sitting in church with a bunch of people who have the same feelings (about religion) as myself, i guess this is comforting to some, but not me.
The next time I need to eloquently explain why the little man isn’t getting baptized any time soon, I’ll just point them here.
I’ve been thinking about Tongguu Momma’s comment and I see her point about not wanting to be in her version of heaven because I don’t want to spend 100% of my time worshipping Jesus (although, the champagne and acoustic guitar in Laurie’s image sound pretty good!). My question about this notion of heaven (and pretty much all notions of heaven) is what happens to the people who don’t go there? Tongguu Momma, if you’re reading this, I’d love to know where I might end up in your version.
Ack! Oh, boy. Okay, well… first I should say that I am not a huge role model when it comes to being a Christian. I am a Christian, and I say that as someone who truly does believe in and love Jesus, but I also struggle a ton in my Christian walk. So I am not typically one to provide examples and answers. It embarrasses me quite a bit to admit that, but I’m just keeping it real.
I would answer your question by saying that Christianity IS very different from other world religions. The vast majority of world religions, including all of the “larger” ones, believe that good works equal a place in heaven/ enlightenment/etc. This is why the world typically believes that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. And they define hell as a horrible place filled with horrible people.
Many self-professed Christians also portray these things as a fact.
But, in reality, the Bible doesn’t say that at all. The Bible says that ALL people are sinners and that ALL sin is equally bad. The Bible says that I- who strives to live life as a good person, although making mistakes left and right due to selfishness and pride - am equal to a mass murderer without the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
That is a painful pill to swallow. And until I accepted that truth, I wasn’t really a Christian. And I think a lot of people who call themselves Christians walk around without accepting this truth.
Which accounts for a lot of our bad PR. And the legalism you see. And the judgmental attitudes.
I also believe that I - without my belief in Christ - I would go to hell. Jesus mentioned hell as a real place many times in Scripture. (I think maybe 26 times?) I don’t know exactly what hell is like, just like I don’t know exactly what heaven is like. I do believe that hell = separation from Christ and that heaven = worshiping Jesus 100% of the time.
And that’s really all I know. Do I know where you would go after death? I don’t and it’s not my place to guess. My place is to just love you as you are, where you are, no matter what. No matter if you live life as an atheist or agnostic or Buddhist or whatever for your entire life. No matter how much you screw up. No matter how much I screw up. Which I definitely will.
That’s pretty much all I know. Except…
I also know that Jesus has impacted my life greatly. My husband and I have faced a pretty difficult three years - a rough transition to parenthood (we adopted a 12 month old who needed A LOT of extra help), the husband’s near death two years ago, my sis and her family of five living with us for six months, my FIL’s prolonged illness (hospice care, final weeks), my close friend’s recent death, a very long adoption wait (China - LID June 2006), I could go on and on. Through it all, we’ve managed to hang on to our hope and joy. We have our moments, of course, but laughter and love remain.
I don’t credit that to us at all. I credit that to Jesus. And that truly is all I know.
Ack again! Sorry I wrote a book on your blog.
Hi Laurie,
It’s was fun to read your entry/response today. I want to thank you for your kind compliments in my direction, although I’m with Tonggu Mama in fully coming clean in saying I am so far from perfect, it’s not even funny. . . Just ask my kids after a long day with mommy kind of going crazy loco when on Wednesday night, in the midst of helping potty-training little girl, my four-year-old son tripped on a Halloween decoration, thereby splitting open his lip into four directions. Gotta love the ER, but that’s a story for another day. . .
In response to your questions regarding whether or not our ability to remain open-minded to other cultures and religions stems from our service overseas, I can’t help but think that it certainly has contributed somewhat. There’s no substitute for coming to know and love people in the full context of who they are. In understanding their background and choices as human beings, one comes to develop a depth of love for them, and I believe a bit of insight into how much God loves us individually.
As a missionary, the first thing we would discuss with others was the fact that many people believe in a Supreme Being, even though we may call Him by different names. This recognition immediately provided an inherent respect for the way in which others have chosen to worship Diety. That has to be a critical part of our interactions with each other on this earth. This principle was definitely pointed out by our most recent prophet/president of our church, Gordon B. Hinckley, who passed away in February. Here are just a couple of his comments regarding the subject that were directed to all of the members of my faith:
“We must not only be tolerant, but we must cultivate a spirit of affirmative gratitude for those who do not see things as we see them. We do not in any way have to compromise our theology . . . We can offer our own witness of the truth, quietly, sincerely, honestly, but never in a manner that will give offense to others.” (President Hinckley, LDS General Conference, April 2005)
“As we recognize our place and our goal, we cannot become arrogant. We cannot become self-righteous. We cannot become smug or egotistical. We must reach out to all mankind. They are all sons and daughters of God our Eternal Father . . . . And as we go forward, may we bless humanity with an outreach to all, lifting those are downtrodden and oppressed, feeding and clothing the hungry and the needy, extending love and neighborliness to those about us who may not be part of this Church.” (President Hinckley, LDS General Conference, October 2001)
In the end, I feel that claiming I believe in Christ is not nearly as important as demonstrating my love for Him through the way that I love and serve others. Christ taught, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15) and also “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-40)
I am so grateful that these are the doctrinal teachings I can pass onto my children during what can be difficult times. Though I know you have a distrust of organized religion, I feel that mine has provided opportunities for Sterling and me to pass on priceless truths to our children in a meaningful way. Here is an example of that principle—this is a song our kids have been learning together and will be singing for our congregation this Sunday. It is entitled, “If the Savior Stood Beside Me.” If you’re interested in hearing the endearing little voices yourself, click on this link, download it, and listen. If it doesn’t pull up when you click on it, just copy and paste it into your browser. (I promise it won’t hurt your computer, and it will put a smile on your face):
http://broadcast.lds.org/churchmusic/Primary/PR_IfTheSavior_eng.mp3
Lots of love to you and your family.
Hi Laurie,
I meant to comment on your other post, and then I was going to comment on this one, and I guess I just can’t keep up with the NaBloPoMo thing so I am just going to have to be late!
I just wanted to say - especially now that I have read this post - that I am really, really, really sorry for your experience with the medical missions trip and seeing people offer qualified medical care. That definitely happens, and it is definitely (I think) unfortunate. As Christians, we should offer loving care and service to ALL who need it, not just those who acquiesce to our beliefs. FWIW, I have been on other medical missions trips in which we provide care with no regard for beliefs and work with church-based relief groups that hire locals without regard for their belief systems - and actually, those local people generally do become Christians over time. Obviously, some don’t, but their belief status is not a contingency for their employment or the group’s provision of service to their communities. That is how I believe Jesus would want it, too.
And, really, this is a point of debate among Christian churches/believers, but I really don’t know that someone uttering, “I accept Jesus as my Savior” is a true measure of anything, especially under duress. However, thankfully, it is not my place to judge - just as it’s not my place to judge whether people who haven’t heard of the gospel will go to heaven - I believe that God makes that determination. It is pretty clear in the bible that it is by grace, and not works/good deeds that we are “saved” - but I also believe that it is only God that knows our hearts. So the rapist/murderer who claims a new belief in God? Perhaps he is telling the truth, and perhaps he is not. I don’t really care, because God is going to judge him. And people in countries where they cannot hear of the gospel (either by law or because of their physical location)? - I know there are a lot of people who seek to go to the most remote locations to reach the unchurched/unreached, but I don’t know if one visit from a short-term missionary is really enough to truly allow someone to experience the depth of a relationship with Christ. I believe in an all-knowing, all-loving God, though - and a God like that would not necessarily allow a person who has been raised in a country where Bibles are burned, where she cannot get to know a believer well enough to make an emotional or intellectual decision about Christianity - I do not know that my God would automatically send her to hell.
That’s just my belief system. I consider myself an evangelical Christian. I know it sounds kind of like a cop-out to say “I believe I don’t know, and only God knows” - but I think it kind of sounds like we presume to know as much as God does when we say it any other way - and I think God is kind of offended by that.
I think that maybe because you are a doctor you don’t want to accept the fact that Jesus heals? He has healed more people than doctors. I’m not being rude, but that’s just the feeling I get.
Yes, I’m a born-again Christian, and yes, I am saved, and I know for sure, without a doubt, that I am going to Heaven.
You brought up a point the other day about those who have never heard about Jesus, will they go to heaven? That’s a question that everyone has pondered for years. But, if they’ve never heard about Jesus, then they don’t know to believe in Him. So, that’s up for Jesus to decide, but I would hope everyone would be able to hear about Jesus once before they die, or when He comes again to take His Children Home with Him.
I don’t comment on your blog often because we are almost always on the opposite side of any issue. Your comment about not wanting to expose your children to any kind of religion is the reason I am speaking up though.
I think one of my mothers greatest mistakes was to not take us to church. She said she wanted to let us choose our own religion when we grew up. Honestly she was a young overwhelmed single mother and I think she just didn’t want to get up and take us…but the end result is that neither my sister nor myself have ever felt comfortable in a religious setting. I personally am not a religious person (see above:) but I am Catholic now-since that is what my husband was raised. I think church gives you a foundation -one that children especially need. I have always felt uncomfortable when anyone talks about religion because I really don’t know much about it. I don’t know much about the Bible (of course I know the basics like most people do), but its one of those topics that just makes me cringe when anyone talks about it. My sister (who is the exact opposite temperment as I am) is the same way.
Of course this is just my personal opinion, but I don’t think there is a right or wrong church out there. They all meet the needs of someone. You can find just about anything you want if you just look, so find one you feel comfortable with and at least expose your children to it. It’s a really horrible feeling to not have any religious foundation-it’s also very hard as an adult to make the commitment to a church when you have never been a part of one. I am failing my own children in this regard (so I’m not being critical or holier than thou when I say you should expose them to something)….but I ease my concious by knowing my children will go to Catholic school and hopefully by then I will be better about going to church myself.
Sorry for the super long post on the previous topic but I just wanted to add one thing, especially in light of the schooling conversation in your next post. Despite our family’s active participation in the Catholic Church, we have chosen not to send our children to Catholic elementary-middle-high school. Our oldest son now attends a Catholic pre-school, but that’s more circumstancial, because my brother-in-law works there and is one of few local preschools with a two-year-old program that’s actually clean and affordable! But as for attending the upper grades that matter, it’s public school all the way for us. My husband and I were both products of public schooling and I personally attended a magnet/dual enrollment public school which was phenomenal. I taught at a Catholic prep school for two years and in my experience, it was very disappointing to see how many students were turned off by the Church b/c : 1) it was forced down their throats for 12 years and 2) because so many teachers and parents didn’t practice what they preached. And the education we received at public schools I felt was superior. Values and morals begin at home - they are not instilled at school! That being said, I do see it as a good choice for some families but I don’t think that it would work for ours (especially expense-wise!)
Rachel, Jena, and Mike (I think it was Mike?) have said all the things I would say. I DO believe Jesus is the way to Heaven.
And I also believe what Desmond Tutu said:
From the Gospel of St. John in the New Testament, reminding Christians in the room that Jesus said, “I will draw all people to myself.”
“His embrace is so wide that it leaves no one outside,” Tutu said, stretching his arms out like a cross. “All are inside. All. ALL! Do you understand ALL? Black, white, rich, poor, clever, not-so-clever, beautiful, not-so-beautiful. All. Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Baha’i. All. All. All. Gay, lesbian, so-called straight. All. . . . Bush. Bin Laden. Palestinian. Israeli. All. All. All. Help me.”
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